Robotic Instruments

[RAM]

How many use one? And when you do, how many on the crew?

[Woodcutter]

I have used a robot for 3 years now for most of my work. GPS for most of the rest although I do break out the conventional total station for traversing in the woods.

No employees.

[JasonCamit]

I have used robotic total station for at least 10 years now. Usually for topo and minor construction staking its just me. If there is traffic issues or heavy construction its best to have a 2 man crew for safety.

[land butcher]

I never got a robotic because it doesn't qualify for the car pool lane.

[Stephen Johnson]

Originally Posted by land butcher

I never got a robotic because it doesn't qualify for the car pool lane.

Then you need to go where carpool lanes do not exist. It is much less stressful.

[RAM]

Just curious, we have one and do topos with one person, staking with 2, just becuase of the all the stuff to carry, but today I observed an "agency" crew with a S6, looked like they were searching for existing monuments. Given the current status of the States budget I was a little irritated to see a crew of 3 with a robotic instrument. Why have an instrument operator on a robotic? What does he do? Plus they had three trucks! Safety,nor traffic was an issue. As a private company we would do the same work with one becuase it makes sense, but 3? Just my 2 cents worth and could not keep it to myself.

[bruce hall]

December 98. And it ain't like the photos. I don't look that good.

Anyway, I will sometimes bring someone along just to stand next to the shooter to protect it from leashed dogs, skateboards, bicycles, the visually impaired.

As to having three men. It is okay to have one person manually operate the shooter. He/ she could also operate the shooter robotically while he stands next to the shooter.

I have performed all three of these scenarios. And you never leave the shooter unprotected(Park my truck next to it whenever possible). Course most workman on a field crew may not care, cause it ain't theirs.

"As a private company we would do the same work with one becuase it makes sense, but 3?" Gimme a break, what does sense have to do with it. This is the government operation. It doesn't have to make sense.

[rpost]

How do we teach and mentor young surveyors while running one man crews? Most of my work is in high traffic areas, so I always run a 2 man crew, but on the rare exception that a 1 man crew could be used efficiently, I would still bring my chainman. How else is he going to advance and learn?

[SteveGardner]

I bought a Topcon 8203A in 2004 to give me the option of running an extra one-man crew when necessary. I've actually run it robotically only rarely. I know it's kind of an early model but it gets confused so easily that it's more frustrating than it's worth for most applications. The reflectorless is a nice feature that I've used maybe half a dozen times in the last 7 years.

Now, we use it for our main gun with a two-man crew, basically because I can't afford a new standard total station right now and my 3B and 3C have intermittent communication issues and the screens have turned half black, otherwise I'd still be using them.

[JasonCamit]

Next generation of Party Chiefs? The economy can be blamed for the forced necessity of the one man crew, if you want to point fingers. But the truth is that our profession has created this issue. The proposal/bidding process these days is so highly competitive that a one man crew is the only way to make a profit. Again, we are the professionals pushing these cost estimates so low that sometimes the numbers do not even make sense. We minimize our profession everytime this happens, and it is happening in a vulgar display the past few years. The ranks of the technicians/party chiefs/instrument person/chainman have been thinned in our industry. As a PLS, we need these players on the field, and they need to be taught properly.

Perhaps a one man crew is the creative business model that allows a company to survive this tough times. When the economy recovers to a healthy point, maybe we will see this trend end?

Last week I had a pest control company treat my rental. I received (4) proposals from different companies. They were all whithin 15% of each other. I checked my records to see what the cost was when I first bought the house in 2000. They were roughly the same cost, give or take 5%. The pest control companies have a terrible reputation, yet even they understand the value of their services and do not grossly under-cut their competition. When will we wake up?

[land butcher]

Originally Posted by Stephen Johnson

Then you need to go where carpool lanes do not exist. It is much less stressful.

Nothing more relaxing than going to a job and following farmer John on a 2 lane with no passing at 30mph in a 50mph zone.

[land butcher]

Originally Posted by rpost

How do we teach and mentor young surveyors while running one man crews? Most of my work is in high traffic areas, so I always run a 2 man crew, but on the rare exception that a 1 man crew could be used efficiently, I would still bring my chainman. How else is he going to advance and learn?

A question I have asked repeatedly, maybe the college grads here have the answer.

When I bid const jobs I was amazed at the cost spread, even when you eliminate the "low-ballers' and the "I don't really want this job high bids" the remainder still have a huge spread.

[TIB]

Originally Posted by rpost

How do we teach and mentor young surveyors while running one man crews? Most of my work is in high traffic areas, so I always run a 2 man crew, but on the rare exception that a 1 man crew could be used efficiently, I would still bring my chainman. How else is he going to advance and learn?

Be careful! If you teach him too much, he may take your job

[land butcher]

Originally Posted by TIB

Be careful! If you teach him too much, he may take your job

First I trained him then I worked for him.

Be nice to your help.

[jcoffey]

RAM -

We've used a robotic for 4 years. We usually only send one man out (for topos) when the site is reasonably clear and the terrain is reasonable. All other topos (with more line of sight and vegetation problems) are 2 man if nothing else than to keep sighting-in the prism, but usually for more than that. It's also helpful (for one man) if we just have to go out a re-set a few points. I'm certain that we are far from the cheapest game in town. We get 'underbid' a lot even with the use of 1-man where appropriate.

Jason -

Very good point but I'm not sure how much the robotic has much to do with it. I'm sure you're right that there are many surveyors who 'bid' on projects with no other cost estimating technique than just 'making sure they get the job'. Pathethic. But another problem with the 'bidding' subcontractor situation is that (1) There is rarely a 'staking plan' in the set of plans, and (2) there is rarely a 'staking specifications' section in the specs. So I imagine that many surveyors are bidding jobs based on their own ideas of the contractor's expectations for certain facets of the job. For example, do you include a 'grade staking' portion if the proposed slopes are only a few feet high and follow the boundary lines? Some graders would say they can handle that with a couple of hot hubs and PL stakes, and nothing else. The plumbing subcontractors don't have this problem. They have comprehensive plans and specs that show exactly what they are to perform.
I suppose this is for another thread but it is a good topic.

John S. Coffey, PE, PLS

[TIB]

Originally Posted by land butcher

First I trained him then I worked for him.

Be nice to your help.

Good advice LB. I,m trying to be nice, but it's hard sometimes. I bite my tongue
a lot nowadays.

[David Anaya]

Originally Posted by TIB

Be careful! If you teach him too much, he may take your job

That is garbage. When i started, the FCG (F#@$ CAD Guy) never wanted to show me anything on LDD because of this reasoning and other elements i will not get in to here. I knew autocad but not to the point where i could pick up things as quickly as i wanted to because of this fear; or he would say he showed me something which was a lie and go to my boss and state he doesnt get it. This is foolish i went to this line of work to learn and become a professional. I worked my a$$ off and got educated to get where i am now. I feel someone like me where I want to round off my knowledge would stunt my development if i didnt continue to learn from more experienced LS's and PC's.

[RAM]

This is all interesting, but back on track. The state is in a budget crisis, just like a lot of us. State agencys need to change the way they do business. They need to start saving money, just like the rest of us. At $4.30/gal a survey crew of 3 does not need 3 trucks (at 10 mpg) to drive 75 miles round trip to do a survey that could be done with a crew of 2 in one truck. Almost everyone I know has been affected by cuts in pay (10-20%) including State employees. We (the taxpayers) can not afford "the way its always been done" any more.

Ok off the soap box and I will go back into habernation.

[JLG3RD]

RAM- your off target on your complaint, there is a bevy of reasons why state crews drive their own rigs. It actually is a cost saving for them most of the time. The cost to run a vehicle pales in comparison to hourly wages and getting the work done. Also the State purchases gas at a discounted volume rate much less than the $4.30 a gallon.

[Woodcutter]

Ram,

Perhaps you should throw your hat in the ring to be king of caltrans. I hear that position just opened up.

While you're there, you might find a few other inefficiencies worthy of your attention.

Good luck, I'm right behind you.

[bruce hall]

"State agencys need to change the way they do business."

I am not really sure that they have to. I wonder who the state agencys are competing with/against. Most state agencys have a monopoly on the work that they do. That is, no one else is competing for the work so why does their business model have to change?

"They need to start saving money, just like the rest of us."

Why should they? I am probably wrong but are they held accountable? Are their holidays and vacations paid for? Is their retirement supposedly still there? I suppose they could save for a rainy day, but it don't rain on me if I have a guaranteed income. Not even a little misty.

And all this stuff has nothing to do with robotic surveying.


There probably was a good reason three guys were out surveying using three trucks with a fourth guy (the robot) set up over on the side of the road. You should have stopped and asked them. But then again, maybe not.

[Mojavegreen]

I have been using a robotic instrument for close to 10 years. I have been using more and more as a one man unit for topos. Heavy construction I like to have a second guy but sometimes that isn't always possible so staking just goes a little slower. The one place I worked at would always have a chainman calling in sick so you learn how to get work done by yourself. His loss.

I was at a survey supply store one time when a Caltrans crew rolled in to pick up a new instrument. When I asked them what happened they said the other one blew over and was in the shop to get fixed. I asked them why they are picking up a new one they said the state doesn't have money to fix it but they have credit to buy a new one. Do you think they learned their lesson. Did anyone get fired...no. As taxpayers we will just have to pay.

Last week I was coming back from a job outside of Santa Maria. I saw a minimum of 10 Caltrans trucks on both sides of the 101. 2 S6's setting in the center median 1000' from each other. Field crews doing topo on both sides of the freeway. One holding the rod...one holding the data collector...another doing notes...another with a machete and the last guy watching traffic. Money well spent. How much do you think that cost for that topo. If it was a private company doing the topo it would just be 2 (2) man crew out there doing the work. Just my 0.04 cents

[pbchief2]

Yup, screw the future. Why worry about teaching an upcoming chief or starting out an apprentice on the right track. Those that keep bidding jobs based on a one man crew are doing the profession a great disservice. The ability is there to run jobs this way, but is it right for the future of surveying. As surveyors continue to discount certain types of work and forget that they are part of a profession, I see why surveyors seem to be in short supply when work is abundant. It is only the bottom line that counts in these times.

[land butcher]

Actually I never saw the cost savings of a robotic. Some but not enough to justify much of a crew/job rate reduction. I heard that const staking was faster only because it automatically goes directly to the angle and doesn't have to search like a human does, does that really save that much time.

When you consider the cost of a robotic vs a total station, and that there is only one person to do ALL the work is there really a cost savings.

Many think that using a robotic takes a 2 man crew rate and cuts it in half or by 40% when it really doesn't.

Of course surveyor's aren't exactly known for their business expertise, they work with numbers but profit loss statements tend to be left at the bottom of the to do basket.

[bruce hall]

construction nails or stakes. One or two man. It is tooooo sliiiiiiick. A lot a wood/nails can go in the ground with a two man crew and my Geodimeter 650. But only one guy, that's me, it takes a little longer.

Up and down, up and down, it seems like forever. My coffee comes after the lath rack is empty, then refill. It is easier with two foot lath. Less weight unless my chainman is carrying it.

The main idea of a robotic shooter was to put two guys out pounding the wood, searching for stuff and leave the dummy at the gun. Much better deal.