Centerline Ties

[Greg Sebourn]

A surveyor is subdividing land via a Parcel Map and there are NO conditions associated with it for setting centerline ties, but the surveyor elects to set ties along with replacing a few missing centerline monuments, none of which are mentioned on the map.

Can the surveyor just file ties with the city or do they need to file a Corner Record for minimum compliance with the PLSA?

Note: I see no way around filing at least a CR but we have a difference in opinions in the office.

[E_Page]

Are these points being destroyed or disturbed by construction activities associated with your PM, or are you just rehabbing some monuments that you found?

[Greg Sebourn]

The street won't be touched by the project. The surveyor tied out some found monuments and set some centerline monuments along with ties.

[bruce hall]

me that you file the things in both places. You got a monument of a different character at the intersections, nothing verses something, and you are setting accessories(spelling) to something.

sounds like you are spending more time on this trying not to file something than it would to just file it.

Why not just show them on the Parcel Map? I assume they had something to do with the Parcel Map job and were not just set as a hobby, were they?

[Greg Sebourn]

This would make about the third surveyor on the map which has just recorded.

Greg - Oh. I read "is subdividing" and thought it wasn't recorded yet. I'd say Corner Records would be the way to go for the ties, but depending on what methods were used and discrepancies dealt with to reset the centerline mon's you might be into a RS.

[Greg Sebourn]

Sorry, it has just recorded.
If it were up to me, all would have been on the map. I would have at least filed CR's for the set/reset accessories/monuments.

At the heart of this debate is this: Can the surveyor get away with only filing ties at the City or must they ALSO file CR's with the county?

[E_Page]

Yep. Since the map has recorded without showing these monuments/ties, CRs are in order.

I was under the same impression as Steve, that the PM had not yet recorded.

[Greg Sebourn]

Don't get hung up on recorded or not recorded. The question is simply: can the surveyor file the ties at the city and not need to file anything else with anyone else?

[E_Page]

Ahah! No.

[Greg Sebourn]

That's what I figured, but someone seems to think otherwise. I am looking for one of those super-creative wordsmithing types who can read into the PLSA that which I can't.
So far, no takers...

[pls7809]

I think CR's need to filed no matter what. If ties aren't in the COA then, to me, they don't need to be filed at the city. He could do the CR and send the city a photocopy of the CR after it's filed as a courtesy.

[pls7809]

The PLS act says nada about "centerline ties". There was a thread a little while back where Dave Woolley pointed that out. Can't find the thread though. If you can find that thread there might be some info in there about this subject as well.

[Dave Lindell]

If the first source for research for a typical surveyor is the city, then file them with the city.

There are many cities here in Los Angeles County that are the first source: Burbank, Glendale, City of Los Angeles, others I may not know about.

There are also cities in Orange County that are the first source: Brea, for example.

A courtesy copy to the County wouldn't hurt, and may cover your ..., well never mind.

How much work can it be to print out another copy of the Corner Record?

(Since Los Angeles County provides the forms free it is even easier!.)

[subman]

Here is the link to that previous post which I started and several of you chimed in on:

http://www.californiasurveyors.org/clsaforum/showthread.php?t=3055&highlight=centerline+ties

[Greg Sebourn]

I, too, thought I had seen that topic here. Thanks Dennis!

[Willard Hall]

I consider centerline ties as bearing or witness monuments, which I always set my tag, not just lead and tack or scribe. There require recordation. 8764 (b)

However, I do not as a general rule set centerline ties.

The replaced centerline monuments, no other triggers except replace, require CR.


Willard Hall
PLS 6788
1298 Navel Place
Vista, CA 92081
760.758.7725

[mpallamary]

The primary purpose of filing a Corner Record is to perpetuate the location of found monuments, thus assuring that future surveyors are able to relocate the associated monument. The reason surveyors either file or record their survey is because the survey is placed into the public record and the methodolgy used is standardized under a codified process. If nothing else, the name of the licensed surveyor who conducted the work is memorialized.

When records are filed with a city engineer or county engineer, there are no assurances that the records will be adequately preserved nor are there any uniform methods of indexing. Centerline swing ties are like bearing trees; they are accessory monuments as soon as you tie them out. You, as the surveyor, are the one who assigns value to the reference monument(s).

The use of the Corner Record has been considerably liberalized across the state to allow for the inclusion of more information than originally contemplated. It is a valuable tool and one that should be utilized at every opportunity.

As an aside, there is one particular city in San Diego County wherein the controlling field books for the centerline ties were thrown out because "no one used those old books."

When in doubt, file and if unsure, file.

Good luck!

[mpallamary]

Also see 8773(C) of the LSA. Also check out the attached as it might be beneficial.

[bruce hall]

8773(c) is a "may", not a june or july or a shall. It might be nice if it was a "shall" but it isn't. Maybe it should be, but I never know how far things will go when the wording(or in this case one word) of a law is changed.

Probably the biggest snafu with your whole scenario Greg, is that somebody set some monuments at the centerline intersections and they don't appear on a map anywhere, and it sounds like you might have even found them along with the ties. AND YOU KNOW ABOUT IT.

"I didn't set them, I just found them. And besides they aren't my tags anyway. And another thing, I sent the ties to the city. Go talk to city surveyor/engineer."

[Steve Martin]

Greg,

Does this whole arguement revolve around chiseled cross "centerline ties"?
If you guys are setting tagged "centerline ties" I have to believe that you would be filing corner records.

If you are setting some other type of monument that does not meet the requirements of 8772, where is the provision in the LS Act that allows for this second class of property reference points?

[Anthony Maffia]

An amended parcel map would also suffice, easy to draft, no signatures by owners, and ime cheap to process & file. Depends on the jurisdiction.

[kwilson]

I am curious. I do not work in LA and I need some education. It appears to be a custom in LA to perpetuate old and new centerline monuments by setting some sort of marks on the curbs or tops of fire hydrants or whatever and then submitting this to the City of LA because they have perennially been the "keeper of the records". Am I correct on that? Does the County have their own system?

Do new subdivisions in LA require that ties be set on the adjacent curbs for all new centerline monuments? If so, that would seem to be a perpetuation of the method used by the "keeper of the records" (City of LA) and that seems to be a good thing for future surveyors. In every other place I have done subdivisons, the centerline monuments themselves suffice and no ties are needed. Is this because there is more traffic in LA than other places (ha ha).

Incidentally, I did a survey (donation work) in East LA once and went to the City Office where the centerline ties were stored on microfilm (the rolled kind if I remember correctly). The City Staff did not help me much and I would have been there for several hours if not for a surveyor who came in and in about 10 minutes helped me find what I needed.

Any surveyor can set as many "centerline ties" as he wants to and there is no need to file a CR. Every time I do a survey, set control and shoot a centerline monument, those control points are "centerline ties". But when a surveyor “replaces centerline monuments” he is obligated to file a Corner Record. And if new centerline monuments are placed, these monuments represent his opinion of where the record centerline exists and so he is required to file a Corner Record or possibly a Record of Survey depending on how Sec 8762 applies.

[Dave Lindell]

I hope you are talking about Los Angeles (abbreviated L.A.), of which I know something, and not Lousiana.

Yes, Los Angeles has had curb ties for over a hundred years. Book 1, Page 1 is at Yale and Alpine streets in what is now Chinatown. Los Angeles is renown for its survey control. "Centerline" notes show all distances out/in to the given point(s), angles to other points/intersections, ties (usually two pair of tangent ties with one being a spike for later use as a bench mark), often angles from the cneterline to the tie (for use in street topography surveys), and a reference to older field books to maintain the pedigree.

I was spoiled working there.

They are the "keeper of the records" within the city limits, all 454+ square miles of it.

New subdivisions rrequire "P.E." ties (Private Engineer) for all intersections and tract lines. City crews verify the ties are set before the survey bond is released (It was $1000 plus $350 per point at one time).

East Los Angeles is in unincorporated territory of the County of Los Angeles, not in the City. Indiana Street is the dividing line.

Any points set today require a tag; any tagged point requires a Corner Record.

I find and tie-out many points and reset them in the found position by my ties without having an opinion to their validity. I'm just perpetuating what I find.