Corner Record over a Record of Survey?

[wejacks]

I submitted a record of Survey for checking to a central valley county last winter. During the course of the survey, which resulted in the Record of Survey, I recovered a section corner that was marked by a nail in a rock. This corner was described in two US Forest Service corner location description maps and a California Department of Transportation highway map. The Caltrans map showed no accessories. The first Forest service corner description showed four bearing trees in 1926. The second Forest Service corner description said the accessories could not be recovered with certainty. I upgraded this recovered monument by setting a 3/4 inch steel pipe with my tag. On my Record of Survey submitted to the county, I noted what was found and what I did to upgrade the corner. On the map, my note next to corner read:

"FD ROCK MOUND W/16P NAIL IN ROCK. 10' EAST OF FIRE LANE ON OLD DIRT ROAD, WEST SIDE OF GULCH, SET 3/4 INCH PIPE PER LEGEND. ACCEPTED AS SECTION CORNER COMMON TO SECTIONS 9,10,15,16 RECORD LOCATION PER" (here I cited the documents mentioned above)

Upon receiving the marked up, checked Record of Survey back, I was surprised to see that the checker wrote on my RS that I would have to file a Corner Record for upgrading the found monument.

The checker wrote:

"Setting of a monument established by survey of the public lands of the United States requires filing a corner record or putting ties on the map"

I immediately called the checker and discussed in some length the rational for filing a Corner Record on top of a Record of Survey. The County's response was that it was quite clear in the LS act, that a corner record is required for every monument upgraded. I responded that it was not necessary to file a Corner Record if the pertinent information is shown on a Record of Survey. Now, several months later, the County is still insisting that I file a Corner Record. I strongly disagree with their opinion. Other Counties that I deal with on a regular basis do not require a Corner Record over and above a Record of Survey for a upgraded corner.

Pertinent sections of the Code:

8773. Corner records - "lost corners"
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b) of Section 8773.4, a person authorized to practice land surveying in this state shall complete, sign, stamp with his or her seal, and file with the county surveyor or engineer of the county where the corners are situated, a written record of corner establishment or restoration to be known as a "corner record" for every corner established by the Survey of the Public Lands of the United States, except "lost corners," as defined by the Manual of Instructions for the Survey of the Public Lands of the United States, and every accessory to such corner which is found, set, reset, or used as control in any survey by such authorized person.

8773.3. Corner record - monument rehabilitation
In every case where a corner record is filed pursuant to Section 8773, the licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer shall reconstruct or rehabilitate the monument of such corner, and accessories to such corner, so that the same shall be left by him in such physical condition that it remains as permanent a monument as is reasonably possible and so that the same may be reasonably expected to be located with facility at all times in the future.

8773.4. Corner record; filing; conditions; exemptions
(a) A corner record may not be filed unless the same is shall be signed by a licensed land surveyor or registered licensed civil engineer and stamped with his or her seal, or in the case of an agency of the United States government or the State of California the certificate may be signed by the chief of the survey party making the survey, setting forth his or her official title, prior to filing.
(b) A corner record need not be filed when:
(1) A corner record is on file and the corner is found as described in the existing corner record.
(2) All conditions of Section 8773 are complied with by proper notations on a record of survey map filed in compliance with the Professional Land Surveyors' Act or a parcel or subdivision map, in compliance with the Subdivision Map Act.

I found no accessories, except references to the "fire lane" and "Gulch" which I noted on my map. I see no reference in the 'Act' that requires me establishing swing ties to the corner, unless upgrading accessories is it. But no original accessories were found.

I discussed this issue with two other County Surveyors, and several other Licensed Surveyors. The consensus of everyone is that a Corner Record is not required on top of a Record of Surveyor in a case like this. Anyone else have an opinion on this issue?

[D Ryan]

It appears the whole purpose of section 8773.4(b)(2) is for just this type of instance (assuming you're giving us the straight facts). The Record of Survey will get your monument on record, so why the need for the Corner Record? The Record of Survey is the better vehicle anyways as it falls higher in the hierachy of public records. Corner records are considered quasi-public records and aren't even known or recognized by some in the title industry since they're not on file at the Recorder's office. This may be a case of someone looking only at one section of the law without taking into account other sections that may trump it. An all too common mistake I've seen when interpreting the LS Act and the Map Act.

[Bob Hart]

Hopefully Howard Brunner is reading this, but if not you may contact him through the Board of Registration . http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/ He is the contract Land Surveyor for the Board and will help the central valley county to understand that what you have done is correct. This is a case of not understanding that the record of survey contains all of the elements (plus some) that are to be shown on a corner record.

Bob Hart

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

I know it's caving but it doesn't seem that difficult. You've probably spent more time arguing than if you just did it.

Maybe it's the wrong answer but that's what I would do.

[coast]

I'm sorry Dave, but when we adopt an attitude like you just expressed, we become a part of the problem and not the solution.
We always need to be proactive about these issues in educating them about the reality of the situation or forcing them to adapt and change. This is their profession as well as ours.

On the original issue, my suggestion is, after trying to get them to see reason, to let the County Surveyor know personally that they have had their 20 days and they need to record your Record of Survey...NOW. Of course the County Surveyor can place a note on your map, but he'll look even more silly than he already does. If they don't comply, file a Complaint with the Board against the County Surveyor and any appropriate staff.

[Hank Berg, PLS]

Wejacks:

I didn't notice that you had set new reference markers to the new iron pipe you set. Isn't that standard practice? [Four for a section corner and two for a 1/4 corner].

And, couldn't you show the R.P markers and tie distances to the corner on your Record of Survey Map?

Hank Berg, PLS

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

I'm just saying pick your battles. You can always go on the exact principle of the thing and spend more time fighting than if you let the little things go. Maybe it's a bad philosophy but I've learned over the years to save the battles for the big problems. Filing a corner record does not seem like a huge request.

As far as the County Surveyor not filing the map, I didn't read that into the first post but the County Surveyor does need to be told to file the map if he has refused to so far because of the corner record issue.

[coast]

I agree. Sometimes you can win the battle but lose the war!

[wejacks]

The way I see it, I am not establishing the corner. I upgraded the existing corner, which is required by the LS Act. Why is it necessary to set new tie points if the section corner is shown on a record of survey that has bearings and distances to the quarter corners west and south of the section corner? I see no wording in the LS Act about setting tie points? I found it based on the Forest Service corner descriptions, doesn't that make it easily recoverable? Showing it on the Record Of Survey adds additonal evidence of its location. Maybe I can set a post with a blinking red light on top of it to make it more visiable [:-)

Yes, I could file a Corner Record, but why? A Record of Survey is constructive notice to the world of what I did and what I set. It carries far more legal weight than a Corner Record. This County, however, seems to think that Corner Records are the cat's meow for corner evidence. This one issue I have with this County is only the tip of the iceberg. Several other 'requirements' by this County for my map, are just as questionable as this one. This County's requirements are very different from the major Northern California Counties I deal with on a regular basis.

[Bob Hart]

Fresno County requires ties for section corners shown on any map not just a ROS. It sure make it easy to perpetuate the corner when an irrigation pipe is replaced taking the monument out.

Is the real problem that you didn't tie out the corner and you don't want to go back to locate ties?

Me thinks ye protest to much!

Bob Hart

[wejacks]

No I don't protest too much. The three Northern California Counties I deal with know me by name and I am on very agreeable terms with them. They do not require ties to section corners. I have had only one disagrement with any of them in past 15 years, and it was over a Corner Record.

Actually I did tie out the section corner in question, but I do not agree with the County in question interpretation of the PLS Act. Why is that County puts so much emphasis on Corner Records? A Record of Survey is far superior to them?

What irks me is that the County Surveyors are not on the same page for issues like this. The "Guide to filing Corner Records and Records of Surveys" that was put out by them, does not mention setting ties for section corners. Why can't a uniform policy be in place through out the State?

[landbutcher]

A few years ago this would not be a problem, as Corner Records (CR) did not exist.
A Record of survey (RS) is a much better way of upgrading monuments as the Corners Records are only on file in the County Surveyors office and they can be prepared in pencil, which means in 20 years you probably won't be able to read the original.
A CR was invented to shortcut the setting of one or two corners of a lot survey and get around the extremely high fees being charged to check a RS.
Now CR's are used to perpetuate C/L mons during street rehabs. one before the rehab and one after.
To file a CR for a monument shown on a RS is redundant and a waste of time and can create problems in the future having two recorded docs for the single monument setting.
I think the small battles should be fought as well as the big ones. In one County I worked in most surveyors had the "just do it" attitude. The recorded maps in that County are a joke with all the garbage on them because the County surveyor wanted it and nobody *****ed and lo and behold it became pressident.
Keep up the fight. Go to the State Board if you have to.
BTW is the County Surveyor a LS or a PE?

[Dan Manion]

Section 8773 refers to the Record of Survey exception in Section 8773.4(b)(2)....on a Record of Survey Map, or Subdivision Map. When a boundary survey is done for the Subdivision process does that same County Surveyor's office make you file a Corner Record also on the found and rebuilt section corner of your clients land? djm

[Gary O]

It seems that a corner record is the 'minimum' so a record of survey would certainly exeed that minimum. That request makes no sense.

[bruce hall]

It seems to me that section 8773.4(2) covers the situation. You do not have to file a cr since the ros is being filed. Don Manion stated the same thing.