PLSA 8772

[SteveGardner]

I need suggestions on how best to comply with 8772 regarding monumentation of a property line that is going to have a block wall built on it in the near future.

The establishment of this boundary will require filing of a ROS and the placement of the wall will require staking of the boundary but how can I permanently mark the boundary monuments when they will be blown out by the wall construction? This will be a fully-developed site so there's really no good place on-site to place offset monuments and I don't like the idea of setting them on neighbors' property.

I know our monuments get destroyed on a regular basis by fence construction but when it's a certainty that it will happen, it seems foolish to set tagged monuments at the corners and show them on a ROS knowing that they will never be seen again when the wall goes up.

Ideas?

[VANCE]

can you place them on the wall when its constructed, ie nail and tag?

[SteveGardner]

I thought about that but if they build the wall properly, the property line and edge of wall will be one and the same. In order to tag the top of wall, it would have to be partially on the neighbor.

[dmi]

How about offset monuments?

[VANCE]

well their went my idea. Maybe set a projection in the face of curb (if applicable?)

[SteveGardner]

But where? Any offset along the property lines will have the same problem of being on the back edge of a block wall. I don't like offset monuments in the first place because although they are shown on the ROS, Joe Blow citizen doesn't know that when he sees them. I have done them when necessary but the only way I can think of in this case is to have them offset on the neighbor's property or a double offset on-site in the parking lot.

I'm thinking I'll just have to set what I can in the street so the survey can be retraced and the PL points will just have to be temporary construction stakes. I have a feeling this has been discussed here before because I remember some comments that every construction stake we set has some known reference to a property line but we don't tag every hub.

[T. S. Higgins]

Witness monuments would do the trick. You may just have to put them in an area on your client's parcel in wells that won't disrupt additional construction when it takes place.

I'd probably tie them out pretty heavily as well, so you can replace them if the construction crews disturb them later on.

[bruce hall]

at the corner or don't. Also set a 2x2 foot offset to the corner on your clients land. Go back later and see if the 2x2 is still there. If not, reset a iron pipe at the 2x2 location per the data on your RS, and you are good to go.

Or set it at a different location if you want. the easiest thing is to set the pipe at the corner and tell the owner not to rip it out and never go back. All your bases are covered.

[btaylor]

I can only think to set offsets to one side, as long as you can tell they will survive and be useful.

[DWoolley]

I have set offets to the sideline and the backline. To me, the key is to not set the monuments in such a way to be mistaken as actuals.

I have attached a record of survey with an offset monument as a sample. See the southeast corner of the lot being surveyed and the corresponding detail on sheet one.

For what it is worth,

DWoolley

[E_Page]

I use brass caps, so am able to indicate by stamping the direction and magnitude of offset. It's more expensive than a tag, but is setting a BC feasible for this survey?

[dmi]

That is a great suggestion. Stamp a brass or alum cap."WITNESS CORNER 3' X 3' O/S TO P/L" Place all the particulars on the record of survey so the the public will be able to decode the abbreviated stamping.

Your point about not liking to use offsets is well taken. Plenty of problems have be caused by their misuse, but sometimes offsets or witness corners are the only thing to do.

[SteveGardner]

If I really had to mark the corners, brass caps stamped with the offset info would be a good idea, but I'm not sure that I do have to. Part of the point of my question is about 8772 and the requirement for tagging boundary line reference points. Since 8772 starts out with "Any monument set...", it is probably supposed to mean "permanent" monuments, not just construction stakes. I'm thinking that as long as I set sufficient monuments in the street or on the right of way line or both so the survey can be retraced, I'd be OK.

This is for a community center for a certain ethnic group that is prevalent in the neighborhood. I just talked to the project manager today to discuss with him what his timing is on constructing the wall, if he's selected a contractor yet, and the need for a boundary survey and ROS. I'm a little less excited about the job now that he told me that he just wants the absolute minimum of staking and that the site is going to be built by volunteers from the community. This is not a huge job but it's not simple either. It's about 2.5 acres with a building, a bunch of parking, drainage, etc. I can't imagine how a bunch of volunteers are going to build it to the City's satisfaction with only an absolute minimum of stakes. I envision a lot of hand-holding and since I don't speak a word of their language, I envision leaving the job with a headache. Maybe in the old country you could just build stuff however you want, but this ain't the old country.

[pls5528]

Some of my clients in the past had requirements of "placing property corners" at the initial "Topographic mapping stage", and, of course, after the design and during the construction, the monuments were obliterated. In an attempt to preseve the monumentation of the property, I filed the Record of Survey with the County and contacted both the County and the client to let them know that I was going to delay the recording until the end of construction. This allowed me the opportunity to place the monuments at locations dependant on the construction. Sometimes, I could place a nail and tag, pipe or rebar at the corner, and sometimes it would have to be on an offset. The main thing was, the monuments in place satisfied what the client wanted and continued to perpetuate the location of the property of record. Of course, if construction didn't take place in a reasonable amout of time--all bets are off!

[Ian Wilson]

"...a community center for a certain ethnic group that is prevalent in the neighborhood..."

Are you saying there are Jewish neighborhoods in sacramento, Steve?

It's really tough finding Kosher meat up here! The three-shelf kosher section at Safeway doesn't cut it, either. Tell me more!

Mazel tov...

[kwilson]

The most important thing in my opinion is that the survey needs to be able to be retraced by others. Whether or not the actual corner monuments survive is not your responsibility. We set corners but we do not maintain them. That is up to the property owner. Your Record of Survey should have sufficient monumentation on it to allow another surveyor to retrace what you did. Even though they may not find your corner monument that got destroyed, they will know how you determined the boundary and where it is located. If necessary, show ties to additional monuments if most of the monuments you used may ultimately be destroyed by construction.

I agree with the others that final monuments can be offset or set after the improvements have been installed (corner record may be necessary for changes made after RS is recorded).

Whether it seems foolish or not, when we do a boundary survey and a Record of Survey is required, we must file that map. The rest of us surveyors want to see your work and need to see it so we can agree with it if possible and not create some other method which conflicts with yours.

[rpost]

You don't have to set them. I travel all over the state doing ALTA surveys. Many times I'm back home before I have a boundary resolution. I have filed or helped file Record of Surveys in many counties without setting a single monument. I show the monuments that I found and how they relate to my boundary, nothing more. The purpose of survey (establishment of points or lines) would be per 8762(b)(4). This is a great way to comply with the law without excess fees or hastle, especially with clients buying commercial real estate that could care less about monuments.

As far as 8772 is concerned it is my understanding that the board has the opinion that temperary line points set on an established line (shown on a map) are perfectly acceptable. Although I do like to have monuments on each side of a line I'm staking.

[bruce hall]

"Although I do like to have monuments on each side of a line I'm staking."

I would much prefer to have monuments on each END of a line that I am staking. I know the feeling, thinking so fast that the words come out jumbled. Gotcha!!

As to tagging temporary points on a lot/property line, I was told to my ear on my phone from a member of the board that I was supposed to tag those 1x2 stakes. This was about 10 years ago or so.

I don't, it's a waste of time. Tag the things that are gonna stick around, and who knows, maybe that pipe that I think is going to be destroyed or moved by the wall construction, really won't be destroyed or whatever. The pipe is in the ground, got a tag in it and a map filed.

I am probably wrong but I didn't think that the setting of permanent monuments at the corners or offset to the corners of a survey was a mandatory requirement mentioned the PLSA.(Although I think that is what I am supposed to do when I survey someones land). Some folks will argue that a 1x2 with a tack set to mark a point on a property or land line is "any monument". Except for the fact that it is not durable.

[land butcher]

Story about setting property corners before the fences.

In the central coast is a tract built for horse owners with riding trails along the backs of the lots. Since the streets and the trails are private the property lines extend to the c/l of both the street and the riding trails.
No issue with putting spikes and washers on the c/l of the streets but putting pipe in the c/l of the horse trail is not a good idea. So it was agreed that the back lines would be set at the edge of the horse trails.
Along comes the fence crews. They find the spikes in the street and the pipe at the sideline int of the property and riding trail, the latter being the angle point of the fences. So, in their infinite wisdom of saving survey monuments they removed the pipe, set the post, poured the concrete for the post and - drum roll please, stuck the pipes back in the cement.
Only about 50-100 of these tagged pipe are out of location. That triggered the amended map noting that all back line pipe are no good.

[SteveGardner]

Been there, done that. On a subdivision we did a couple of years ago, we diligently set all the back lot corner rebars and on our next trip out to check pad grades, there was a big pile of my capped rebars sitting on one of the pads and nice new fences around all the lots.

Many years ago on another subdivision I caught the fence crew doing what you describe. Pull it out, set the post, put it back. The fence guy's excuse was that it doesn't matter because the ground moves every seven years anyway. (?!!)

[bryanmundia]

I understand that you want to comply with 8772 but have you though also about the fact that the wall shouldn't be built right on top of the monument you set? If they are building a wall then you might want to inform your client that not only does the face of the wall need to be within the property lines but the footings do as well. With that being said, once the walls are built, if the footing is built on the property line, you should have a nice piece of concrete to place a tack and tag.

If it was me, I would provide temporary staking at a consistent offset using 2x2's. Once the wall has been built, I would attempt to set the boundary corners. if the corners can't be set due to the wall, I would survey the new wall and show it on my record of survey with its relationship to the property line. I think this is just as good as monuments placed on the ground. That way you are leaving evidence of what was existing at the time the wall was built.

[SteveGardner]

Bryan - That does sound like the best idea and if the 90-day filing deadline starts to get close, I could write a letter to the CS explaining why I haven't filed.

I agree that the wall and footings should be on the client's side of the property line. I haven't seen any details of the wall construction and so far these people haven't given any indication that they will listen to me or worry about things like that. Can you tell I'm losing interest in this job? It sounds like it's going to be a major cluster-mess when I give them some "minimal" number of stakes and the volunteers try to build a fairly complex site off of them and get most of it wrong. I'm not sure I want to be involved in that.